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  From:  Raincast   6/28/2001 7:28 pm  
To:  ALL   (1 of 15)  
 
  92.1  
 
Greetings, 
This is to all Christians and to the writer who calls himself David. David, I have read many of your posts. You seem to be a major force here in this forum. Many could learn from you, and your knowledge of the Bible. However, I am here to correct you in your approach of the Non-Christian. I have come from a vampire forum to this page via link. The link stated that people who wish to see how lost we christains are to come and talk to you. You must see that you can not use the Bible to prove the Bible. God exists outside of the Bible and all around us...and more importantly inside of us. The true testement to your God is you. Your temple to Heaven is your conscience, and the fact you are existant. And it seems you have a hard time seeing through science. A great scientist once said that science and God should never conflict, for the two are hand in hand. Science is only the attempt to understand what he did. Does the Bible have blue prints??? No. Does it unravel the mysteries of the cosmos? No. Do is even attempt to do so? No. Therefore you have no right to discuss such things, for they are above you. Jesus taught to keep quiet about such things, as it will get you in trouble. In order for Christianity to pierce the hearts of the unbelieving we must see that science is only a bi product of God. Sometimes the thoeries are off, but the Church has been way of track too. You must meet the non Christian on level ground. For those who dont believe in God or Jesus go to www.godandscience.org. It is a very good site. Or if you think you have what it takes to take me on in a debate "disproving" God. Bring it on. I have not lost once yet. Try me. Anyways I would like to see what this post brings... 

Rain
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/28/2001 10:11 pm  
To:  Raincast   (2 of 15)  
 
  92.2 in reply to 92.1  
 
Hi, 
I appreciate your insight, and comments. 

If I understand correctly you followed a link to this forum from a Vampire forum instructing people to visit Basic Christian and see how "lost" Christians are. 
--- 
I agree we can Witness of God by using the Bible, our lives, science, or our surroundings. 

Since the Bible is Most Clear and Concise about God and His word, the Bible is a good place to start. For instance the sciences and our surroundings tell us that we exist in a sinful fallen world, but science and Gods creation do not tell us directly about Redemption through the Cross of Jesus and of the Plan God has for us in Reconciling us to Him, therefore the Bible is Mandatory in getting to know God. 

This is a fairly new Forum, and many good topics about God have not yet been discussed. 

Thank you for your input, 
I look forward to more Posts. 






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Raincast   6/29/2001 4:35 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (3 of 15)  
 
  92.3 in reply to 92.2  
 
David, 
Your Christian way is one I can admire. I think we as Christians must learn to approach the unsaved with an open mind. The death of Jesus is the most important event in human history. This can be proven using the sciences of archaeology and anthropology. If we find common and true ground based in the world we live in sucess comes. We must realize that the non Christain is full of delusion of the Bible fed to them by society...Like Jesus never even existed. Yet, science proved far beyond a doubt that he did. In fact the Birth of Jesus Christ is the only event recorded in the international geological timeline. I would like to discuss matters of evolution with you. I would like for you to tell me what you think of the concept... 

Rain
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/29/2001 4:45 pm  
To:  Raincast   (4 of 15)  
 
  92.4 in reply to 92.3  
 
Hi, 
We can discuss evolution, although it really isnt my subject. Im more into the Spiritual than the physical. 

Ill let you start. I didnt know about the international geological timeline, you can inform me about that. 

David 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/30/2001 7:57 am  
To:  Raincast   (5 of 15)  
 
  92.5 in reply to 92.3  
 
I don't think there are many people who would claim that Jesus never existed. I also don't think there are many people in the world who would say that Jesus wasn't a nice guy. However, I feel that its completely impossible to tie Jesus directly to any grand power in the universe. It's the same with Buddha or Mohammed or any other prophet to ever walk the Earth. "God" is such a grand concept that I don't think humans could ever understand it for what really it is. One can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God with any means currently known to mankind. For a human to somehow prove God would be blasphemous in itself as us humans aren't even a grain of sand in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps God made it this way to keep us from becoming complacent. 
I do like what you said about religion and science. Its quite true. God itself can never be proven through science as the nature of science is answering questions to only to raise more questions. Both religion and science are the ouroborous of mankind; Us constantly chasing our tails trying to find an end to something which has no end... But, truth be told, the process is more important than the final goal.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/30/2001 9:28 am  
To:  Raincast   (6 of 15)  
 
  92.6 in reply to 92.1  
 
Did you see my last post to you? I think Delphi might have killed it. 
If it did, I'll sum it up here: 

I don't think there are many people who would say Jesus didn't exist or that he wasn't a nice guy. However, to tie Jesus into a power like the concept of God is as unsubstantiated as it is with any other prophet to ever walk the Earth. Its impossible for a human to understand God for what it is as one can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God. After all, humans aren't even a speck of dust in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps God did this purposely to keep us from becoming complacent. 

I do like what you said about science and religion. Its impossible to prove God through science as the nature of science itself is to answer questions, although the answers only raise more questions. Both science and religion are the ouroboros of mankind; Us constantly chasing our tails for an eventual end to something which has no end. However, truth be told, the process is more important than the final product. 

Now, on to other things. (Note, I haven't gotten to look through the whole page yet): 

The web page you mentioned, www.godandscience.org, while put together fairly well leaves out many important facts, some of which would make it unreadable for the laymen. For example, the article discussing how different humans are from other animals leaves out that the same experiment preformed on chimps was preformed on "socially retarded" humans with the same results. Conclusion: How we learn to think is social rather than genetic. The article also leaves out many studies that have been conducted on other animals of various species for "human traits" such as emotion, cognitive thinking and personality. All of which have been proven to be present in all higher thinking creatures such as birds, mammals and even some reptiles. I think anyone who has ever owned several pets can attest that animals have these characteristics. 

The article on "Junk DNA" doesn't mention that scientists have known for years that these "off" switches in DNA sequences often hold traits from past evolutionary stages. They've known this ever since they turned all the "off" DNA "on" with chicken DNA, rendering a chicken with teeth, large claws and scales. This same procedure has been preformed with many other birds rendering similar results. The amino acid argument is weak at best, since we have created a living cell out of the 13 basic amino acids alone in a lab. The amino acids themselves are only the building blocks for DNA much like oxygen and hydrogen are part of water, however neither alone hold any of the base physical or chemical characteristics which water has. 

Thirdly, the article about extending the lifespan of an organism by playing around with the creature's biochemical structure doesn't mention that, when such is done, it always leaves the creature severely deformed or with a diminished mental capacity. Genetically robbing Peter to pay Paul. When introduced into a living creature, the results are often deadly. 

"Descent of Man Theory: Disproved by Molecular Biology" doesn't talk about the native tribes of Australia. Studies which have been done on pure bred Aborigines (which there are almost none of left) show different genetic structure from any other race of people on the Earth. The closest they can get are with some Asian ethnic groups, but the genetic differences on the DNA level are still very noticeable. The argument about the Y chromosome are very unscientific since they never did any studies on Y chromosomes present in some women (which does occur in some hermaphrodites or the parents of hermaphrodites) nor explain what the Y chromosome does in the first place (all it does is indicate primary sexual characteristics). 

Also, many of the articles on the site only reference specific parts of an abstract rather than the whole thing. In other words, taking words out of context. 



-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/30/2001 2:22 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (7 of 15)  
 
  92.7 in reply to 92.6  
 
Dr. Shock,
I know that we dont agree on this topic. I want to be Clear that the Bible Teaches and Claims that the Universe, everything Visible and everything Invisible Exists because of the Authority and Authorship of Jesus. Jesus is the Power and Ability of All Existence.

Colossians 1:15-17 (Jesus) Who is the Image of the Invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by Him were all things Created, that are in Heaven, and that are in earth, Visible and Invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were Created by Him, and for Him: And He is before All things, and by Him All things consist.

powers would include gravity, weak and strong forces, electro  magnetic forces, etc.

Hebrews 1:3 (Jesus) Who being the Brightness of His (Gods) Glory, and the express image of His (Gods) person, and Upholding All things by the Word of His Power, when He (Jesus) had by Himself purged our Sins, sat down on the Right Hand of the Majesty on High.






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Raincast   6/30/2001 2:50 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (8 of 15)  
 
  92.8 in reply to 92.4  
 
David, 
Do you believe that the bible states that evolution does not exist? And futhermore do you believe that existence of evolution means that we came from monkeys? We'll start with that for now.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/30/2001 3:23 pm  
To:  Raincast   (9 of 15)  
 
  92.9 in reply to 92.8  
 
Let me make a clarification about Evolution.
What some people call Evolution, i.e. birds with different beak sizes and lengths; moths that are different colors, and people that are different sizes i.e., midgets to giants; are all still birds, moths and people. There are variances within kinds  groups of creatures.

What does not happen is the kinds becoming different kinds. Fish only give birth to fish and birds to birds and people to people.

I am sure that the Bible has left out any possibility of Evolution. The Bible repeatedly from Genesis to Revelation, insists on using the word Create.

Genesis 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding, fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moved, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and everything that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in Our Image, after Our Likeness:

Evolution teaches that humans have emerged from lower life forms, monkeys, apes, or whatever.

The Bible is clear that Humans are in the Image (spiritual), of God that we are created unique from animals and that Humans are not animals.

*hope this answers your questions.






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Raincast   6/30/2001 3:31 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (10 of 15)  
 
  92.10 in reply to 92.9  
 
David, 
Evolution is not a set belief system...It changes. And the word "create" can apply to God in any fashion. He is all powerful. All things that take place, take place through him correct? Man did not come from ape...We were created as humans. However the ecosystem around us changes to survive the planet. This is the way it works, and God created a world that functions... 

Rain
 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/30/2001 4:54 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (11 of 15)  
 
  92.11 in reply to 92.9  
 
Here is a question though. If God created all the animals in the world solely for man, why did he create animals that kill man, i.e. Rattlesnakes, sharks, black widows, platipi. And why did he create animals that are too far away from anything for man to do anything about such as bacteria that lives 10,000 feet under the ocean?

---------------------------------- 
W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/30/2001 6:57 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (12 of 15)  
 
  92.12 in reply to 92.11  
 
Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created All things, and for Thy pleasure they Are and Were created.
Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and Honor, and Glory, and Power, be unto Him (God the Father) that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb (God the Son, Jesus) forever and ever.

God Created us and the earth for His pleasure He knows where everything is, and what everything is doing, at every moment. Even stuff at the bottom of the ocean.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and Death by Sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that All Have Sinned:

Creation is a Testimony to the Power and Ability of God. Now creation is also a testimony of Sin and death. Before sin there was no death and no harmful animals on the planet. After the sin of Adam and Eve, now the world is in a fallen condition with death, thorn and thistle. Now we can also get poked, & harmed by Gods creation as well as getting blessed. Example Blessed by looking at a sunrise or sunset. This is God telling us that everything is Not ok in the world, because of the presence of sin in the world.

To me, this is one of the Biggest Reasons that I do not believe in Evolution at all, and that is that if Evolution were true survival of the fittest there would Easily be a Bacteria, a Virus, a Toxin, a Poison, or something that would wipe out complex organisms like people, plants and animals. Especially in the millions, billions of years that evolutionist claim bacteria and viruses have been around.

God is Clearly keeping a balance in creation to keep viruses and poisons in control and away from annihilating us humans.

Bacteria at the bottom of the ocean must be important for marine life. Bacteria probably has some housekeeping functions for the ocean, and is probably very useful and needed in the functioning of the earth.






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/30/2001 7:35 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (13 of 15)  
 
  92.13 in reply to 92.12  
 
Okay, what is the purpose of the platypus? 
AND THERE ARE BACTERIA, POISONS, AND VIRUSES TO WIPE OUT ALL OF HUMANITY IN A HEART BEAT. 

Anthrax, Spanish Flu, Ebola, Smallpox, AIDS, Bubonic Plague, cyanide, arscenic. AND THOSE ARE THE ONES WE KNOW OF! If another outbreak of Spanish Flu would hit the United States, a good portion would die! If a terrorist bomb would release Anthrax into the air of New York, you can kiss over a million people goodbye! Hell, I know there are thousands of viruses deadlier than AIDS and Anthrax in government labs just waiting to be released. And don't say thats the work of man/satan, because according to you, they were there from the start.

---------------------------------- 

W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/1/2001 12:57 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (14 of 15)  
 
  92.14 in reply to 92.9  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
What some people call Evolution, i.e. birds with different beak sizes and lengths; moths that are different colors, and people that are different sizes i.e., midgets to giants; are all still birds, moths and people. There are variances within kinds  groups of creatures.

What does not happen is the kinds becoming different kinds. Fish only give birth to fish and birds to birds and people to people.
  I have one word to say to this, a word that I know I've mentioned before, along with an explanation of its meaning and significance.

  The word is: Triticale 



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   From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/1/2001 1:10 am  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (15 of 15)  
 
  92.15 in reply to 92.11  
 
DW (DEATHWISH123) wrote:
And why did [God] create animalssuch as bacteria that lives 10,000 feet under the ocean?
<NITPICK>
Bacteria are not animals.  Back in the ancient days, when all living things were classified as animals or plants, bacteria were classified as plants.  Today, all living things are classified in five kingdoms, and not just two.  Imagine a drawing of a cartoon character's raised hand and wrist, with three fingers.  Imagine that the wrist, drawn as open at the bottom, is labeled Monerans  This represents the lowest kingdom of life, those whose cells do not contain complete nuclei.  This group consists of bacteria and blue-green algae (which are now sometimes referred to as blue-green bacteria).  The palm of the hand is labeled Protistans.  The protistans are those forms of life which are composed of a single cell, but whose cells contain complete nuclei.  The three fingers represent the highest forms of life, those which are multicellular.  The fingers are labeled Animals, Plants, and Fungi.
</NITPICK> 



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 To email me, remove the string .nospam from the email address which appears below.  DO NOT send me any form of advertising, chain letters, or other such garbage.  Spammers will be dealt with very harshly!

bob-blaylock.nospam@usa.net  

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